Argument with A Moslem

someone whom I will call "Moslem Debater" ask
me "What is your opinion of the Islamic Faith"
for me... and most Hindus.... when Moslems
bow to Mecca in prayer... (where the sacred
Kabba stone is located)... or when they make
pilgrimage to Mecca.. and encircle Kabba
stone... 7 times... for Hindus that is worship of
ShivaLingam stone... sorry no offense just being
honest
Bowing to a stone ... is bowing to a stone.... is
bowing to a stone.... sorry.... no offense... but
you asked my opinion... and I am Hindu....... by
the way, as a Hindu, I think bowing to stones is
just fine....
An interesting historical fact... after the death of
Prophet Mohammed... the First Caliph... had all
variant copies of Koran destroyed.... so the
Koran we have is not necessarily the original...
but its what that Caliph saw fit to allow...
If I would ever consider being Islamic.... it
would have to be Sufi... they are the mystical
branch of Islam... but the Orthodox Suni and
Shiite consider them heretics... and have
executed them in past
But then... all my life... I have always been
attracted to the mystic , trancendental spectrum
of any religion
if I were Jewish... I would be hasidic... probably
and study Kabbala on the side
for me... when the Prophet/Patriarch Jacob...
has is dream in Old testament about ladder from
earth to heaven... when he wakes up... he erects
a stone and pours oil on it.... that too is
Shivalingam.... just like Kabba stone
i even asked a Jewish Rabbi if there is any
Talmudic commentary on the meaning of Jacobs
act with the stone... but he said... it is never
explained in Judaism...
I believe that... just like it says in Fifth Surah...
around verse 43... "Allah CHOSE to create people
as different religions, for his own purposes.. and
he tells us to compete with each other... IN
DOING GOOD WORKS...
SO there is the Koran telling us that it is Allahs
will that there be Hindus.... and Buddhists, etc
you must try to understand... I do not see the
Kabba stone as a Sivalingam BECAUSE I AM
HINDU.... rather I BECAME HINDU... precisely
BECAUSE I percieve the Kabba in Mecca as a
Sivalingam, as well as the stone which Patriarch
Jacob annointed... it is in my particular personal
nature, to see in this way,... fifth Surah says
Allah created me this way,.. and that its ok...
I have stated very clearly my Hindu beliefs... to
which I am entitled.... the Kabba stone is, for
me, a ShivaLingam.....
In the Svetasvatar Upanishad (white
horse).....God speaks, saying : "I am the source
of every sacred scripture.... I am the source of
every Religious Creed" ... since God may be
thought of as beyond Being and Non-being...
since being and non-existense have their source
in God.... then perhaps God is even the source of
Atheism..
Eastern theologies stress that "God does not
EXIST".... in the sense that God is the source of
BEING and NON-BEING.... and cannot be
diminished in his Majesty or Soverignty... by
partaking or participating Himself in the
dualistic attribute of EXISTENCE
In Hindu belief, God is One, but has THREE
primary aspects, a Trinity like Christian's
(Brahman-Creator,Vishnu-Preserver,Shiva-
Destroyer) with incarnation/avatars like Jesus,
but also Krishna, Ram... but God is so powerful..
that God makes ALL religions and scriptures and
worship to be true... God is not limited by
human concept of contradiction...
from the Hindu point of view, to say that God
cannot deceive, is to limit His Omnipotence,... it
is related to the Good/evil problem.. how can a
Good God create a world in which there is evil
so , the Hindu answer is that God is a Good
beyond good and evil... and a Truth beyond
truth and falsehood
.... but to fully appreciate this belief,... it is
necessary for you to understand many other
scriptures and religions....
God is beyond good and evil... consider then
Jesus tells the apostles to go and TAKE a donkey
and a colt of a donkey... (for Palm Sunday)... and
if anyone asks ... say "The Master needs it"...
well... stop and think... THATS STEALING... but
then again , everythin belongs to God... so ITS
NOT STEALING...
God's request to Abraham, to sacrifice Isaac, is a
request to commit murder,... but Abraham
unhesitatingly complies with God's request, not
because Abraham fears God, but because God is
beyond murder, beyond good and evil, beyond
truth and falsehood...
Moslems limit Allah... by saying Allahu Akbar...
Allah is Great... this is a limiting of Gods
Power... Hindus say God is Great.. but also
infinitesimal.... One... but many..... with form
yet formless.... western religions LIMIT Gods
omnipotence to FORMLESSNESS
WHY should God be bound by finite human
logic.... ? why cant God be all things at once...
why is God not beyond the frail human concept
of truth and falsehood... and aristotelian
syllogistic reasoning?
Eastern theologies stress that "God does not
EXIST".... in the sense that God is the source of
BEING and NON-BEING.... and cannot be
diminished in his Majesty or Soverignty... by
partaking or participating Himself in the
dualistic attribute of EXISTENCE
I have only stated these things because someone
asked me my opinions and beliefs... now you
want to rob me of my beliefs against my will....
and in violation of Allahs explicit commandment
in Glorious Koran... "If you compete, compete in
GOOD WORKS"
and I say,why oh why is it so important for
Moslems to make everyone Islamic, for
Christians to make everyone Christian... they
must have very weak faiths and be very insecure
people.. to act in this way... and not respect the
free will with God/Allah gave to each Human...
I answer over and over and over... and quote
from Koran... but.... you do not honer
commands of Koran.. for it says.. No conversion
by force... and you are trying to force me to
agree to your viewpoints...
God is so merciful that he creates a religion and
a scripture to fit the personality of each ethnic
group of people.... the Moslems need a religion
like Islam.... they need Holy wars... and a justice
which severs the hand of the thief..... and they
need to believe that only they posses the truth...
truly Allah is very compassionate
if the Kabba stone is not Holy and Sacred... why
not destroy it... and eliminate the possibly of
peoople perceiving it as idol worship.... but if IT
IS HOLY... then why not worship it...
God is so merciful that he creates a religion and
a scripture to fit the personality of each ethnic
group of people.... the Moslems need a religion
like Islam.... they need Holy wars... and a justice
which severs the hand of the thief..... and they
need to believe that only they posses the truth...
truly Allah is very compassionate
in Koran 2:257 "Let there be no compulsion in
religion" and
Koran 5:48 "To every one have We given a law
and a way...made And if Allah had pleased, he
would have [all humankind] one people [people
of one religion]. But he hath done otherwise,
that He might try you in that which He hath
severally given unto you; wherefore PRESS
FORWARD IN GOOD WORKS. Unto God shall ye
return, and He will tell you that concerning
which ye disagree."
the first verse of the Koran... "In the Name of
Allah, the Beneficint the Merciful...." but in 4:56
we read "Lo! Those who disbelieve our
revelations, We shall expose them to fire. As
often as their skins are consumed... WE SHALL
EXCHANGE THEM FOR FRESH SKINS!!!....THAT
THEY MAY TASTE THE TORMENT!!!."...doesnt
sound too merciful or compassionate
Koran explains two things VERY CLEARLY...
#1..Allah has created ME with Hindu Beliefs.....
and #2... Allah as Deceiver (one of the 99 names
of Allah)....will cast me even more deeply into
my own beliefs...so, why do Moslems foolishly
try to convince me of Islamic Beliefs.... dont they
respect the will of Allah???? the words of the
Prophet Mohammed???
it was a Moslem in this room who first asked
me...WHAT I BELIEVE... but when I honestly
answer... then Moslems cant accept it... they
only want to hear other Moslems agreeing with
them... and they cant even accept the Sufis...
but consider them heretics and execute them...
and yet... the obvious Hindu understanding of
4:56 in the Koran... is that.... the Fresh Skin
which the unbeliever is given ... IS ACTUALLY
RE-BIRTH... reincarnation.... now THAT IS
MERCIFUL!!!!
I have done my best... more than most... I have
read the Koran cover to cover in English... I have
visited Majid a dozen times, done Wudu...
Racas.... etc.... but I refer my Hindu beliefs and
Scriptures.... why cant people accept that....
For someone to understand MY beliefs,.. you
would actually have to BECOME me.... become
HINDU... the same for me to actually understand
YOUR beliefs...I would actualy have to become
Moslem or Christian.... cant you understand the
futility of trying to persuade the whole world of
you Islamic or Christian Faith...
the Moslem solution is to cut off a thiefs hand....
and perhaps castrate the rapist (but .. I dont
know..)... so... its pretty easy not to steal or rape
anymore with a mutilated body.... but that is
Koranic justice
(Now... this particular Moslem.. in chat.. tries to
set a trap for me.. asking me "If Allah creates a
man.. and that man commits rape... Is Allah
pleased?".... so I answer)
come to think of it HOW CAN YOU BE CERTAIN
THAT ABRAHAM DIDNT RAPE THE MOTHER OF
ISHMAEL????? I mean she was a slave (or
servant)... and was GIVEN to Abraham.. right....
hmmmm. interesting point
Genesis ch 16 definitely leaves open the
possibility that Hagar was raped against her
will...... most definitely..look "Sarai said to
Abram... See now, the Lord has restrained me
from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid;
perhaps I shall obtain children by her. "....
"Then Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar her
maid, the Egyptian, and GAVE HER...".... sounds
like rape to me...
Now... since Allah foreknows ALL THINGS from
before the creation of the world.... ALLAH also
foreknew that, when Genesis Ch. 16 was
written... that I would suspect RAPE... so... to
emphasize the free-will of Hagar... Allah would
have added an extra verse to clarify her
willingness.. just as He added that she was an
Egyptian...
.. the non-Islamic world owes you a debt of
gratitute for revealing the rape of Hagar...
concealed in the Hebrew scriptures all these
centuries...
so, in answer to your original question "If a man
is a Rapist, and God created that man,is God
pleases with that mans action...".. obviously
from Genesis Sarai and Abram were rapists, ..
raping Hagar... but since Allah is beyond Good
and Evil... and can make Evil good... Allah made
Ishmael the branch of the Islamic religion and
nation
A moslem was trying to trip me up one day by
asking me, "If a man is a Rapist, and God
created that man, is God pleases with that mans
action...".. but I "got him real good by
answering: "obviously from Genesis Sarai and
Abram were rapists,.. raping Hagar... but since
Allah is beyond Good and Evil... and can make
Evil good... Allah made Ishmael the branch of
the Islamic religion and nation
poor poor Moslem Debater.. ..... you are so
tragically desperate... you didnt think I would
come up with such a clever theological response
to your trick question about rape... ha ha ha
I agree with the statement.. that God is beyond
good and evil... consider then Jesus tells the
apostles to go and TAKE a donkey and a colt of a
donkey... (for Palm Sunday)... and if anyone
asks ... say "The Master needs it"... well... stop
and think... THATS STEALING... but then again ,
everythin belongs to God... so ITS NOT
STEALING...
Moslems believe that if you die and go to
heaven.. you have beautiful wide-eyed DANCING
GIRLS.. and that you can have all the wine to
drink that you want.. and it wont give a
headache... (it says these things in Koran)... and
yet Moslems arnt allowed to drink alchohol....
LOL.... (and no mention of what the women in
heaven get ;-) no wide-eyed dancing BOYS)
even the Moslem Fast RAMadan, has the Sacred
name of RAM embeded in it.. and in Mecca the
Kabba stone is a Shivalingam... oh how merciful
God is to all people
by the way... I have a complete transcript of all
my THEOLOGICAL replies to these Islamic
issues... complete with quotations from the
Koran and Genesis, with chapter and verse
references... if anyone would like an email
(The Moslem Debater now ridicules me , saying
that I enjoy raping the untouchable caste.. and
that Brahmins rape untouchables... and also
ridicules Hinduism, saying that we believe that
the Shudra Caste came from Gods feet)
... I do not believe that I have personally attack
you in any of this... in such a fashion as you ...
saying that I am "raping untouchables"... you
just demonstrate what a lo-class person you are
by such remarks... you asked me what I though
of rape and I pointed out that Abraham very
possible raped Hagar.... which produced
Ishmael.. and Islam...
Moslem Debater .. if you were realy genuinely
religious... you would be somewhere praying
right now... and the required time for Moslem
prayer has already probably come and gone for
you.... but you wouldnt be wasting your time
fighting with me.. and hurling insults......
a famous verse from the Gita says "It is
necessary that pleasures and pains come in life...
but that person who experiences them BOTH
with even-keeled equanimity of spirit... is ...
wise"
speaking of Hearts...Bertrand Russel
(mathematician) pointed out..."If God is
everywhere present... He must be in satan's
heart, but then satan , having God in his heart,
cant be all bad...but if God is NOT in satan's
heart... then God is not truly OMNIPRESENT"
Moslem Debater .. it must be your vast
education and learning, which causes you to
repeat... yourself so frequently...look..
Titanium... just for the sake of argument...
suppose I suddenly "saw the light"... took
Shahad... became Moslem... well.. what then ...
you would still be faced with 1/2 billion other
Hindus to hate..right
you know, Moslem Debater is teaching all of us
some very valuable lessons... and we owe him a
debt of gratitude.... I have learned a lot today..
really... im serious...
hey.... genesis says Woman comes from Adams
rib... is that so different ... or so terrible... as
believing that the different Castes or Varnas
came from the different parts of "Gods Body" or
so very significant in the big picture..??? Even
St. Paul.. I believe ... speaks of all people being,
different members of "the same body".. with
"gifts differeng"
and Genesis also says that Adam came from the
soil... earth... dust... infact the root word for the
name Adam means "soil"...
gosh... the longer I spend with the insulting
Moslem Debater ... the more I learn about
religion...this is astounding
I suppose every attempt at humility is motivated
by pride.... ironically sort of the "Catch 22" of
spirituality...
the Lord's prayer is interesting in the Original
greek.... for example the first mention of
Heaven... is Ouranos... (singular)... Our Father,
Who art in Heaven....but the second mention is
plural Ouranois... "on earth as it is in the
Heavens"..I am sure there is some subtle
mystical teaching hidden in the singular and
plural use of the word Heaven in the Lords
Prayer
in Lords Prayer, most interesting is "give us this
day OUR DAILY BREAD"...IN greek "our daily
bread" is "arton eemon ton EPI-OUSION"...
WHICH literally means.... the bread which is
ABOVE BEING (ousia)..(existence).
elsewhere, Jesus teaches.. "do not worry what
you shall eat... the birds do not sow or reap...
but are fed", so wouldnt it be strange for Jesus
to teach people to pray for "daily bread" in the
Lords Prayer?
so the interesting interpretation of the Lords
Prayer... is that one is not asking for "daily
bread".. in the sense of wonderbread ;-)... but
the Eucharist... "super-substantial" bread
which sort of goes hand in hand with the verse
from the Epistles.."every Good gift, and every
perfect gift, is from above, and commeth down
from Thee, the Father of Lights"...the early
greek church fathers, asked... "why does it say
every GOOD gift, and every PERFECT gift?"
and they answered that every Good gift is the
rain, sunlight, crops, fruitfulness of the earth,
but every PERFECT gift is.. the SACREMENTS...
At this point.. Moslem Debater leaves the chat
room...
Ahhhhh,,, I finally drove Moslem Debater away
with the Lords Prayer... Thank you Lord Jesus....